Ukraine

00:00:00: Hello and welcome to Differently, a podcast series about equal parenting around the world.

00:00:06: My name is Matthew And I'm really grateful that you're taking the time To listen to this series.

00:00:12: whilst living in Germany i was lucky enough to take A total of seventeen months state finance paternity leave.

00:00:19: We are now living In The UK where This wouldn't be possible?

00:00:23: In this episode, we're hearing from Ksenia Dmitriev who live in Kiev about their experiences trying to raise their daughter in an equal way whilst the country is at war.

00:00:39: Next up it's Japan and then its onto Finland.

00:00:43: Join me as I get to know parents & experts of these countries And hear how people all over the world are trying to do parenting differently.

00:00:52: When Russia invaded Ukraine on the twenty-fourth February twenty-twenty two Demetria was in Kiev.

00:00:59: His girlfriend Ksenya was abroad.

00:01:02: They'd only met several months before the outbreak of the war.

00:01:06: After the invasion, many Ukrainians decided to try and leave the country.

00:01:11: Ksenia decided to return.

00:01:14: I came back from Belgium in March or April twenty-twenty two because my future husband... Because i wanted everything he was going through in ukraine and i was absolutely sure that.

00:01:40: I need to be here because of the long hair and i won't be able to beat it apart of this society if i do not share all these changes.

00:02:03: At some point, the topic of children came up.

00:02:07: Dmitry had previously come to a conclusion that parenting wasn't for him or indeed lots people.

00:02:14: I didn't want to be a parent at all... ...I was living half my life and ready to be child-free because i believe most people today are done in doesn't need children at all.

00:02:37: Ksenia, on the other hand had always known she wanted a child and as the war continued At some point She realized that just waiting until The War was over might not be an option.

00:02:47: I Was thirty one And then time Um...and yeah i understood That.

00:02:55: um..that's crazy to have A kid during war.

00:03:00: But if in twenty-twenty two I thought that it's gonna take several months.

00:03:06: In twenty, twenty three we understood that It may take ten years and i think when there is no hope left you understand That There will be a second chance to live your life.

00:03:30: Some of your capabilities, they do not change.

00:03:34: So my biological age will stay the same no matter how many years the war is going to

00:03:40: last.".

00:03:41: Demetria didn't have a biological clock that was ticking and in fact for him it was the War itself that started getting thinking about parenthood differently when COVID broke out The impact on life led Demetrio takeout a mortgage.

00:04:01: Now, a few years later the war was having a similar effect on

00:04:04: him.

00:04:06: And I thought that if not pandemic i wouldn't do it.

00:04:11: and now If we have same situation where can go abroad?

00:04:16: Can be mobilized like die every day?

00:04:19: what will left after me when there is time to Have a child with perfect time?

00:04:28: because When this is all over, I don't know if i would want to and that my wife will be able.

00:04:39: For Dimitro This was a big change from his previous thinking.

00:04:42: Bixenia had a couple more arguments up her sleeve.

00:04:46: First of all...I thought wow!

00:04:48: This woman wanted childs for me because she says it's so beautiful and handsome good person.

00:04:59: She doesn't want to waste such like DNA and it would be a perfect baby.

00:05:06: Then I said that you should understand, if i will be mobilized And go to war You'll be parenting all by yourself.

00:05:16: If I die there's gonna be video with child.

00:05:21: Think about is not so easy.

00:05:23: I am like, i'm ready to have a child because even if you die as part of your will be with me and it'll be like your.

00:05:37: uh Part of you in my life.

00:05:40: Ksenia also remembers that conversation And like all parents when she thinks back to it To what she knew or to watch.

00:05:47: She thought she knew about parenthood before any kids came along As she finds herself chuckling a little at the former self.

00:05:56: Yeah, we had a conversation like that and I said that i'm gonna be able to manage all by myself.

00:06:04: Who was the person saying it out of my mouth?

00:06:12: But yeah everything covered baby!

00:06:40: Sometimes, not even war can stop you from wanting a baby.

00:06:44: And indeed sometimes it can help reach that decision!

00:06:49: But what's like to actually have a baby in wartime?

00:06:53: This is what we're going hear about the next section.

00:06:57: After this, you'll hear about Xenia and Demetra's experience of trying share their responsibilities of having a baby equally... ...and when very few people around are doing so.

00:07:08: We'll also hear how the transformation of parenthood is still different for mothers and fathers, even if you are trying to share things equally.

00:07:17: Towards the end of this episode we will return to war on what it's like being a parent in wartime.

00:07:25: So back to Kiev!

00:07:27: Towards the ending of twenty-twenty three Xenia Demetra decided have her baby.

00:07:32: Things went quicker than expected And few months later they were reading up babies getting the flat ready and going to anti natal classes.

00:07:42: At these classes, Dmitry was pleasantly surprised by the presence of quite a few fathers.

00:07:48: Maybe seventy percent attendance were couples and thirty percent were women alone.

00:07:54: I even go to courses when my baby is already born got two courses from UNICEF one clinic here taking care of newborn and even like first medical aid for babies, as our baby was already here.

00:08:21: So only I attend these courses.

00:08:24: And it was different because there were a lot pregnant couples Going there and here, oh like a mommy whose child is with north of his grandma.

00:08:36: And only one man seems single still in.

00:08:39: the days are like me okay.

00:08:42: They were lucky at the timing of their

00:08:44: birth.

00:08:44: We're happy that time In summer it was July.

00:08:50: There wasn't so much shillings Like nowadays.

00:08:55: we doing this interview on January twenty-twenty six during a brutal phase of sustained bombing attacks on Kiev.

00:09:03: I don't understand how people manage to... Be in the hospital today when you have like a five alarms per day and especially at night.

00:09:14: And then we were there, I was couple of times but not one wheel ready with giving birth.

00:09:20: But when we will also on checking it wasn't aired alerts.

00:09:24: You are all going or the hospital going into the basement.

00:09:27: It's called there.

00:09:28: its like If you gave me like given birth Then off course not.

00:09:33: if not from surgery everyone else.

00:09:37: You are going there, there is like beds and chairs.

00:09:43: And you're sitting there waiting... There's water on some Wi-Fi partially but it's really cold.

00:09:51: I don't know how in winter But at summer it was really cold.

00:09:55: Even with the air conditioning.

00:09:56: The heat must have been stifling.

00:09:59: Dmitry tells me that it was thirty six degrees on that day.

00:10:02: Because Kiev turned hot water off for regular checks.

00:10:07: Their baby was washed in freezing cold water once she arrived.

00:10:11: The ward did bring some advantages though...

00:10:34: Not so many children cry, not as many other patients and visitors but still the state hospital couldn't be like sent for any good service.

00:10:52: Dmitry and Ksenia had paid for a private room in the State Hospital So that they could make most of those exhausting but exhilarating time.

00:11:01: Dimitri's parents drove them back to their flat stayed a bit and gave them some presents, then left to it.

00:11:08: After about week Xenia's mum & her sister came stay for awhile.

00:11:13: By this time Xenian Demetria were getting the hang of things so there wasn't actually all that much for guests.

00:11:20: As you for sure know baby in first months, I like is that perfect?

00:11:25: they're sleeping seventy hours a day.

00:11:27: They are like priest feeding pooing Like if your watching them and you look like as I sleep.

00:11:34: And so it was the times when we were all staying on the cradle.

00:11:39: What should be do?

00:11:40: For grown up persons this babies will sleep another seven hours.

00:11:45: what should we do?

00:12:01: during pregnancy Ksenia and Demetra discussed how they were going to organise things once the child arrived.

00:12:08: Whilst Ksenya would take maternity leave, They planned to make use of Demetria's flexible working arrangements To make sure she wasn't left alone with her baby.

00:12:17: In this sense, Demetri was lucky with his job As a consultant for government ministry.

00:12:22: He is largely able work from home And be flexible in these hours.

00:12:27: Incidentally.

00:12:27: This also means that whilst he could get called up Just like every male between twenty five and sixty In practice, it's fairly unlikely to happen.

00:12:38: This flexibility meant Dmitra could do things like get a load of laundry on... ...do the dishes and look after her baby… And make up hours around these activities!

00:12:48: It means that Ksenia wasn't just left alone from an early stage for their child.

00:12:55: That was huge support for me – my husband working at home and he could participate in all the activities related to the kid.

00:13:13: I was trying to remember when it's first time for walk with a baby, in a stroller completely alone like by myself.

00:13:27: It seems that she has been four months Or five months.

00:13:35: In fact, Demetrio isn't sure that he'd have had a baby if it hadn't been going to the office every day.

00:13:42: It was like huge... Like in favor of deciding to have a baby because that I've stayed at home.

00:13:51: Cause if i was going into office, maybe I said no you like how cause?

00:13:55: uh...I don't earn enough too high a person link for full big nursing like.

00:14:00: it's pretty expensive in Kyiv and we don't have grandparents.

00:14:07: so how would be?

00:14:09: It was one of pluses.

00:14:13: Having someone there the whole time for those first few months.

00:14:16: that can be so challenging, this seems really to have made a big difference.

00:14:20: I can't imagine what would do if i didn't have these options and my husband working from home in his first six-months?

00:14:34: That was huge help!

00:14:37: Later on we'll hear about how flexibility isn't enough and how it can actually be abused, and have a negative effect on gender equality.

00:14:47: But first we're going to look at the challenges of using flexibility in a good way because even if that flexibility is there... ...it certainly doesn't mean everything has a walk-in-the-park.

00:14:58: In fact sharing these responsibilities usually creates more conflict rather than less.

00:15:05: Both of you have a say….

00:15:06: …in everything potentially!

00:15:09: In more affluent circles – some western countries it's become almost trendy amongst fathers to say you share things, fifty-fifty when actually...you don't.

00:15:19: I'm sure many of these fathers really do think that they're doing this but in many cases there are whole areas of care that they don't even realise count as part of the whole.

00:15:30: so i ask Senya whether she feels that she and Demetria really DO share things equally.

00:15:34: or wether its more the case that she carries the bulk of responsibilities and Demitria sort just helps her out with some other tasks?

00:15:44: No, I guess we share it equally.

00:15:50: Then I ask Xenia whether they've managed to find time for themselves as a couple?

00:15:53: To just sit and talk about how things are going?

00:15:57: Not really And i think that For now That's the biggest problem.

00:16:06: So It gets better from time-to-time But demands constant work.

00:16:25: So you need to be in dialogue all the time.

00:16:29: Sometimes we're losing this chain of dialogue, and yeah...

00:16:37: I felt a little bad listening to Xenia say how little they had as couple given that they found their time conducting three long interviews for these episodes but our final episode was one with both And perhaps this conversation could be counted as part of that chain of dialogue.

00:16:55: Because on several occasions, their answers developed into exchanges between the two of them.

00:17:01: They talk about those difficult moments whether you have different ideas About what to do.

00:17:07: It's just so tricky to decide together On a course of action.

00:17:12: I think it is not easy.

00:17:15: Most times we try and make mistakes because it's hard, like each of us have a different opinion on how things should be done.

00:17:31: So... It often can end with an argument without proper resolution.

00:17:42: you know?

00:17:43: We're not trying to find the resolution we are just arguing forgetting that

00:17:57: the idea is to find a resolution.

00:18:16: You could ask before, you thought about it at the start saying that okay I'm going for a walk and... But sounds like your expecting?

00:18:26: That i am gonna make conclusion.

00:18:31: if you done this before then are willing to watch movie.

00:18:36: But yeah should be set out loud because You're guessing, you are playing this guessing.

00:18:48: That's a hard condition because when you have a nanny... ...you can like schedule yours from there to that and do it here is your money.

00:18:56: And okay!

00:18:57: When we have partner.. you cannot have an Excel table where each one puts activities and timetables.

00:19:09: During the conversation Xenia and Demetria went straight on to imagine what the near future might be like, when both of them are working.

00:19:16: And there's a child to look after.

00:19:19: this clear awareness of what might be in store for them as a couple I think says pretty unusual amongst parents... ...and it did really impress me.

00:19:28: In the future when Xenias will return to work we'll be expecting or measuring whose work is more Important who will be taking a baby from kindergarten at this day or that day, Who has an even in the free and so on.

00:19:46: So it's...

00:19:47: For those of you don't know yes This is exactly what equal parenting can look like.

00:19:52: It'll be full on time.

00:19:54: We had so many times to learn how do we do That And were still discussing The date comes when we need to discuss.

00:20:05: Why didn't we?

00:20:07: tried to make an Excel table.

00:20:26: When my wife and I had our kids, we were living in Berlin in Germany And it was pretty normal amongst our friends for the dads To take several months of paternity leave and work part-time In order be more involved at home!

00:20:40: I knew this wasn't normal For everyone but to be honest It kind felt normal to me... ...in a bubble is perhaps even expected.

00:20:50: We all live in bubbles And so I was curious to hear about Ksenia and Demetra's bubble in Kiev.

00:20:56: They're clearly well educated, could afford a private room or hospital for their daughter's birth although as Demetre tells me they can't afford the amount of nanny support that some couples can.

00:21:09: So i wondered what role did other parents play?

00:21:14: How do they support eachother on day-to-day challenges of sharing family duties?

00:21:18: So we asked Ksenya whether they have friends who are going about parenthood Expecting this to lead into a larger conversation.

00:21:29: The majority of couples I know, they have the model where daddy is busy with work and he can only be with us when he's free from that.

00:21:47: so no.

00:21:51: In my conversation with Xenia i didn't manage to workout how approach topic again But two days later, with both of them I did bring it up again.

00:22:01: And thanks.

00:22:01: then you said something quite interesting... Something about what her female friends were the more traditional set-up.

00:22:08: actually think about their approach?

00:22:11: They just find a bit surprising.

00:22:15: but as my friend says if that works for me than your lucky!

00:22:22: This is not the case.

00:22:25: But this is interesting.

00:22:28: How does your husband accept that?

00:22:31: Is it comfortable for

00:22:32: him?".

00:22:33: So she's quite worried about my husband, not about me!

00:22:39: Here It felt like we were starting to get to grips with some of the forces at work here.

00:22:45: As conversation continued Dmitriu initially suggested its lack flexibility which stops fathers from being more active.

00:22:53: But then he reflected that perhaps it runs deeper than that and the women are on some fundamental level seen as being responsible for babies in young children.

00:23:04: Finally, He revealed a secret tip.

00:23:07: That's some men share with others to help them get out of doing more at home.

00:23:12: When I say like to my grandparents or grandfathers We're sharing responsibility but its harsh It is demanding.

00:23:22: So they were saying if you Tired like or you can always go to work left it took senior and that's okay.

00:23:30: if she's tired Just hire nanny, oh ask granny.

00:23:36: She will come help.

00:23:38: And they think that it would be like Key to the tool all the challenges.

00:23:44: my colleagues saying like your life If something is challenging language just come-to-work.

00:23:51: say that you have some meetings.

00:23:54: Let your like do it.

00:23:57: Like all our lives, like always do I don't know.

00:24:02: say that you have some meetings.

00:24:05: It's the modern professional fathers get out of jail free card and thinking about it is an excuse That emerges precisely from The post pandemic world Of flexibility.

00:24:18: so this flexibility?

00:24:20: It can be a blessing for gender equality But it could also Be the opposite.

00:24:26: So ultimately, I guess what i mean is flexibility by itself Is not the whole story.

00:24:31: It's about the men and women themselves.

00:24:34: And What they do with this flexibility?

00:24:37: And what Dimitra has decided to do With it has made him unusual even amongst his friends.

00:24:43: Funny situation that was at birthday of my friend.

00:24:46: There were a lot of our like friends who came.

00:24:48: these wives All them have children older than an hour And when guys was trying to joke about, tell us how it is to be a young father.

00:25:06: You just have your baby... It's like eight months old I think at the time and now you're just joking back that it's not you who should be speaking with me because there are a lot of involvement in myself as a baby!

00:25:24: So yeah, it's tough because you have no such experience at your parents level or peers' levels.

00:25:35: You can only try to divide with your partner and that is not a simple thing.

00:25:42: I

00:25:45: wondered what Xenia made of these stories?

00:25:49: What did she as her mother think about this dynamic among fathers?

00:25:55: Did she think it was true that inflexible work arrangements were preventing Ukrainian fathers from doing more care-work?

00:26:02: Or, is actually all just convenient excuses and they didn't want or perhaps did not allow themselves to be involved in the work at home.

00:26:12: Yeah I think that's an excuse.

00:26:16: like Dmitry said his coworkers are giving him advice.

00:26:24: I think that is something similar to that.

00:26:28: That you're saying, your husband or partner he's saying that i'm sorry and very busy... ...I can't take care of the baby right now but let it be on weekends.

00:26:46: So yeah for the majority of men They don't have the desire, because in most cases they do not know what to do with a baby.

00:27:03: Especially when this is small babies and

00:27:07: newborns.".

00:27:09: But what about mothers?

00:27:12: Would they want more help from their partners or are they perhaps also slightly complicit in maintaining the status quo?

00:27:21: Some of my friends would be happy if the partner would be more involved, but they are very careful about saying anything to a man.

00:27:47: So he can say that this is your stuff.

00:27:52: why should I do it?

00:27:54: Sometimes you just feel This is not the type of conversation you can have with your partner, so yeah.

00:28:02: In our tradition there are a lot of parents saying to their daughters that your job is take care of your child and your husband because if she will be like saying I am tired please take the baby.

00:28:20: i want to rest.

00:28:22: He's doing everything right.

00:28:25: Find another woman more strong and left you with your child all alone, so don't overuse his... Don't you dare!

00:28:36: And I know such women that are saying like how?

00:28:41: You're really risking if not making a good wife or mother what kind of life it is A bad situation.

00:28:53: Making the shift to equal parenting is also about rejecting this power that many men have, The Power That Comes With Financial Domination.

00:29:04: But how do you do that?

00:29:06: Particularly when so Many Around You Continue To Conform To It?

00:29:12: I Couldn't Resist.

00:29:13: So I Ask Senior If This Was Such a Real Risk such a Prevalent One How Come She Wasn't Afraid of Demetra Running Away?

00:29:23: How is she able to let him in, like he has done?

00:29:26: Letting them take over tasks that other mothers don't feel they can ask for help with.

00:29:31: I just always felt support and i think... ...I feel safe talking about anything This why as we discussed during pregnancy Mitri is going to participate in that so.

00:30:04: And then Ksenia went straight on, show how much support she provides for Dimitra?

00:30:14: I'm trying...to ask him from time-to-time if thats too much because it seems he's doing too much.

00:30:23: but such conversations they do not lead any efficient conclusion when we sit and make this Excel sheet.

00:30:39: So I hope that you're not lying to me, when you say it's... You can't do that!

00:31:00: And here i should add.. It was me who proposed and found a heart for our daughter.

00:31:08: If Sanya is asking, it doesn't matter that she has a full capacity of strength to do.

00:31:14: She just afraid the time and low level energy.

00:31:17: but I am understanding if i say sure... for you to pass a half of my responsibilities back.

00:31:26: But I believe after that, i will like be living with the zombie!

00:31:29: You know?

00:31:29: So...I think okay it should be at some third in our party.

00:31:36: take care so we have more time for ourselves.

00:31:41: and thats was me who is proposing this.

00:31:46: sometimes its too much And it needs someone to go out and find a bit of extra help.

00:31:55: It also needs somebody to notice these things, or address them… To ask the other person how they're really doing... Or suggest that maybe its getting too much for you!

00:32:12: Someone in her words to continue dialogue.

00:32:29: Becoming a parent has always meant change But when you decide to share the responsibilities of parenthood more than people traditionally have done, that change… well it becomes different.

00:32:41: Perhaps for fathers its a more obvious difference –a bigger change in the past because of greater degree of involvement they had.

00:32:50: but actually I think transition into gender egalitarian parenthood is harder for mothers then fathers.

00:32:58: For Fathers in twenty-twenty six The bar still pretty low.

00:33:03: I mean, just change a few nappies.

00:33:05: Be the primary caregiver for couple of months and you're celebrated as some kind role model For mothers.

00:33:12: everyone expects them to be doing everything anyway.

00:33:15: It's like there is nowhere to go for mothers.

00:33:18: So i think it much less clear what mothers as individuals can do in improving gender equality.

00:33:26: Also, as Xenia makes clear having partner around who able come help with many physical tasks won't necessarily help when it comes to the emotional turbulence of negotiating motherhood.

00:33:39: In fact, The very first thing she told me about in our conversation was this transformation as a mother and how fundamental that was.

00:33:48: This is something you try to get ready for.

00:33:57: You go and check some online courses But everything just fades away.

00:34:10: When it begins for real, when you have the baby and You forget everything that you learned.

00:34:23: So at first I was... It felt like i'm losing my mind At first but it got better.

00:34:36: so this is true what everyone is saying, like the biggest amount of people.

00:34:44: They say that it gets better with time and now I can say yeah they've been there!

00:34:51: And...they know the truth.

00:34:54: Yeah

00:34:55: This transformation Of becoming a parent Is also something That doesn't happen in isolation away from The rest of world.

00:35:04: So as a couple You can decide all you Like to share things equally or to try too, but the rest of society –or at least most- will still see their mother as a primary caregiver.

00:35:18: And then there's our upbringing!

00:35:19: Because even if you want raise your kids in an agenda equal way… You were probably brought up with more traditional expectations around what it means be a mother and father.

00:35:31: For Xenia... The pressure on being perfect was huge.

00:35:40: heart process.

00:35:42: Maybe that happened in my case, but I was sure that i'm gonna see my baby for the first time and become a wonderful mother from the very first day!

00:35:57: I am going to understand all her needs why she cries what he needs how can they help?

00:36:05: But that didn't happen for quite a long period of time.

00:36:11: And I was becoming nuts because of that, so... ...I felt like i'm not her mother!

00:36:24: So acceptance was rather long and hard And when I tried to concentrate on her, trying to understand her better.

00:36:42: Trying to find a key to her personality that was huge work because at the same time... ...I think like healing my inner child as well and better understanding not only hers But myself as well.

00:37:14: Dmitry's transformation, as a father has also been a process but it's involved different feelings both different doubts and different responses to them?

00:37:25: For me I don't think that i made the mistake because for maybe first half-a year or eight months when my friends were asking if you could go back Do you change something?

00:37:38: I was saying that totally, of course.

00:37:41: Maybe if we can't have a chance now... No, it's great thing to happen for me and really helping me become better version myself And i'm interested in seeing what will come from my daughter become the more important this person will be in my life and it's like.

00:38:10: I don't want to say that children, you are living for your children because its also a bad thing when your life is so poor.

00:38:18: You're only getting good emotions from life of your children but somethings that you always want to be part often see what has been coming to help or

00:38:36: shape.

00:38:36: Dmitry's take on the transformation is interesting, I think.

00:38:40: Because despite their decision to share the care responsibilities for that child, Demetrius clearly approaching parenthood from a role of provider in financial sense?

00:39:02: take care of someone.

00:39:03: Yep, I already taken care of my wife so like.

00:39:07: for me it's adding one more person about whom to take care off and It is not such a huge transformation when you are cared-off And then should become parent by yourself.

00:39:23: Now its'nt somebody caring but you're caring about someone.

00:39:28: Because of course there are many couples where the man is also like a big baby.

00:39:35: Yep, when you're saying that you were married with your mother and men can't clean his clothes, can wash or can cook something like this I mean always was self-sufficient.

00:39:49: so for me it's my relationship with Xenia was always trying to be or guardian, something like this.

00:40:02: I think there's a way in which Dmitry is perhaps overlooking the ways in which Ksenia also caring for him and indeed always has done even returning to Kiev in wartime in order be with them.

00:40:16: but it's also indicative of expectations that society does place men under what their role isn't.

00:40:28: Dimitri then goes on to give an account of parenthood through the various skills that you learn, though many phases in life with a child.

00:40:36: Which shows he really is involved and getting stuck-in.

00:40:41: So for me it's not transformational taking care someone or thinking about them... every day, but it's about managing.

00:40:56: It's like a lot of new skills that you should know and it is everyday learning something new.

00:41:10: for the limited period in my life I will be putting diapers on anyone except myself maybe But you should learn how to do it properly.

00:41:22: And there are lots of such activities as babies that you're learning and they will be like for a limited time, then wasted but I think its really making your more flexible, stable, hard-to-impress with something after that less stressful person.

00:41:44: So now I understand my colleagues that have two kids or three kids, they are also much more calmer at work than I am and i understand that's what giving your parenting.

00:41:55: you like becoming a more like calmer and more experienced with some not predictable activities.

00:42:10: I

00:42:11: was also interested to hear that Demetrio is already thinking about the effect his way of parenting will have on their daughter.

00:42:19: Earlier in my conversation with him, he told me he had a very traditional upbringing – in the sense that his father was out all week and only saw him at the weekend!

00:42:30: Even though their daughter is one-and-a half years old, Demetria can tell her sense for what Fatherhood is completely new….

00:42:39: From the beginning, I was like totally pro-parenting both equally.

00:42:51: And of course it's really interesting to see which difference you would make how my daughter will be different from me.

00:42:59: when she'll have a father that is always with her every day and seeing him in the cradle straight to twelve hours per day, she will be totally different.

00:43:15: When my wife first had the idea for this podcast I initially became interested in couples around the world who have succeeded in organizing everything fifty-fifty but i soon began to feel that such a project could actually end up putting people off trying to be more equal in their parenting.

00:43:34: most of us fail at achieving perfect equality and there are good reasons.

00:43:41: I realised that these stories are actually more interesting and have more help to people trying make the change.

00:43:49: Because change is uncertain, involves difficulties – and reckoning with those difficulties!

00:43:56: With this podcast series i also wanted to acknowledge differences between different countries where they are in terms of parenting.

00:44:03: So asked Senya what she thought Ukrainian society could do better In order to help parents share familial responsibilities equally.

00:44:12: I think that the change should begin at schools and kindergartens.

00:44:20: As a very first point, kids should get sexual education in school.

00:44:29: They should understand better their body And have respect to another sex boys, girls and vice versa.

00:44:49: So I think that something needs to be changed in the education in

00:44:58: Ukraine.".

00:45:00: She also suggests more paid leave for parents – an educational programme at work!

00:45:05: Oh… And one I particularly liked...

00:45:08: More dads talking about parenthood on social media?

00:45:14: Time to get onto tiktok, I guess.

00:45:18: Finally she points out how lucky parents are who were having kids at the moment that they have so many resources To help them on their journey as parents and She encourages them to make the most of these opportunities.

00:45:31: And i'm very happy That right now people Are reading and People aren't trying to better understand How The Kids Psychology works, so that's very important as well.

00:45:52: And I'm very happy that i have all the resources in the world and All The Help In The World to try To Figure Out What'S Not Working And Try To Become A Better Parent.

00:46:25: As I Already Mentioned These Interviews Took Place In Mid-January, Twenty-Twenty Six Whilst Kiev Was Heavily Under Attack.

00:46:33: In that particular week, Dmitri and Ksenia had electricity for only four hours each day.

00:46:40: Our interviews were at four p.m key of time with no other lighting on in their flat.

00:46:46: as Each of our conversations progressed the twilight set-in And by the middle of the conversation I could only see Their faces lit in The darkness from the screens Of their phones.

00:46:57: Ksenya told me they'd made sure to charge their batteries For the interviews beforehand you heard about what it was like to become parents in wartime.

00:47:10: In this final section, the focus is on being parents in war time – how having a child that you're responsible for changes the way you relate to the war going around you and how the war affects children themselves.

00:47:24: of course One positive effect of the War Is that It seems to have changed where Ukrainians relate to parents.

00:47:31: I

00:47:34: think people are kinder now especially to pregnant women and two, two women with kids.

00:47:42: But maybe that's my case only I don't know.

00:47:49: but um i can say people helped a lot during all stages.

00:47:55: Um...I couldn't even imagine that in the country it could be so kind a completely unknown person, so yeah.

00:48:09: Demetria reckons it might be because people are worried about the demographic trend and they're reassured to see people still having children particularly when out-and-about.

00:48:20: in pushing a pram with their child in it It seemed happen fairly frequently that people would go out of there way to help them.

00:48:27: Everyone is eager for help.

00:48:30: like we were going just yesterday on subway Some woman was saying to me, I'll hold the door for you.

00:48:41: And i said, I have a wife For that.

00:48:44: she will take care of the door and she's like oh!

00:48:47: I didn't notice okay?

00:48:48: I will hold it for both of them.

00:48:51: so no everyone They all are deeply moved.

00:48:58: in times of war they see small children down.

00:49:01: So demographic situation is maybe not so disastrous

00:49:08: But it's still clearly pretty noticeable that there are fewer children being born.

00:49:13: Dmitry tells me he was expecting quite a lot of difficulty getting a place at the nursery for their daughter, but due to war they're simply far more supply than demand at this moment.

00:49:24: Nevertheless only private nurseries were equipped with generators and bunkers so the war can affect the ability of the nurseries.

00:49:35: Ksenia tells me that on the one hand, The challenges presented by war are exacerbated By the demands of a child.

00:49:42: For example not being able to rely On a fridge is a bit of an inconvenience as An adult but when you're also caring for A Child things like this become a lot more stressful Because just getting the Things done To keep everyone fed and clean becomes Significantly harder!

00:49:58: On the other hand It can help.

00:50:02: That distracts Me from all the difficulties we're struggling with right now, because I have a routine.

00:50:14: No matter what happens... ...I need to do that every day and take care of her

00:50:22: everyday.".

00:50:23: Which isn't to say it's not nice to get away from at all!

00:50:28: One month before we spoke, Xenia had taken their daughter on a trip out-of-the country…to visit relatives And being able to have a break from everything going on in Kiev clearly did her good.

00:50:41: When I left Ukraine, and just felt so peaceful enormously... I couldn't even imagine that this works like that's some sort of tumbler that takes off all your troubles fears for some time.

00:51:14: This trip also produced a very particular moment and both Dmitriy Anksenya mentioned it to me independently of each other in my conversations with them.

00:51:24: A few months ago, my wife was visiting her sister in Europe And she like said that one day there were lots of airplanes in the sky even helicopters And she said that I realized my baby, for the first time seeing a plane in air.

00:51:42: She was like pulling her finger and oh-oh-oh!

00:51:46: Because you're raising your child?

00:51:48: You don't understand?

00:51:50: it's not like you were raised...

00:51:53: With the airspace over Ukraine closed their daughter had simply never seen a plane before until she left the country.

00:52:02: In our very first conversation Ksenia told me she was proud to have produced an Ukrainian Child and that she felt a sense of patriotism in this.

00:52:11: During the interview, a couple months later I asked her whether she still feels that way?

00:52:17: In her answer The anecdote with the planes also pops up.

00:52:22: That's still remains.

00:52:25: but i started to think my kid can as well have normal life.

00:52:37: when Chanking planes in the sky for the first time It almost made me cry because I don't know.

00:52:51: maybe she's not gonna see that a lot of years.

00:52:59: so Being patriots could make her suffer.

00:53:14: Right now she is rather small, so she doesn't understand the air raids and all that.

00:53:24: But I'm starting to think if this can work when she gets bigger... So i am constantly thinking about it!

00:53:43: Dimitri also makes his point during an interview that in some ways, they don't have it as hard as they could do.

00:53:51: And of course for those who are having kids like older the war is totally harsh and its easy when you have a baby and rockets flying over your house but it's harder than your child knowing there were rockets Lightning and his Christ, asking you why this is happening.

00:54:18: So for sure they know that the world will erupt twice before.

00:54:26: But with something between Stoicism & Dark Humour he manages to see something positive in it...

00:54:35: But as many Ukrainians are saying It'll bring really resilient future generations of Ukrainians and they will be so tough that we don't know what could affect them more than their childhood.

00:54:52: I'm sure it's true, the current generation in Ukraine are developing an unusual resilience but possibility for future wars now looms over all these children as does many European countries further afield.

00:55:09: And suddenly The gender of your children can once again mean the difference between them being called up to defend their country or not.

00:55:18: In some countries, military service has been expanded to include women too but in most, gender is still the fault line for obligatory military services.

00:55:29: As a Ukrainian, Ksenia was far ahead of rest of us Europeans and having deal with these issues And I asked her whether idea that daughter's gender meant she would potentially not be called-up into future conflicts made any difference.

00:55:43: Of course, that was my first thought during pregnancy when we didn't know the sex because... We suggested it's a boy and I was terrified.

00:56:02: What am i going to do if its a boy?

00:56:05: It also has an impact by my mom who was saying she had two daughters.

00:56:11: So, I don't know what to do with a boy.

00:56:16: She said that for so many times in childhood... ...I believed it's my thought as well!

00:56:26: I kept this inside of me during all those years And yeah, I was hoping that my baby is a girl not only because of the military service but also what's to do with her boy.

00:56:50: But although these thoughts about the future occasionally preoccupy Xenia and Dimitra it seems to me that the main way war impacts parents indeed all citizens Is the air raids and trips down to shelters often at night.

00:57:07: Dmitry described it to me.

00:57:09: And whilst I listened him, i tried to envisage what must feel like on top of the exhaustion and stress looking after a small

00:57:16: baby."

00:57:29: Every week, even every seven days.

00:57:32: Every ten days was like heavy challenge and we were going to a subway.

00:57:36: It's not for from us but still it's cold.

00:57:38: you should take clothes on Take the cradle or takes And go to the subway and there are a lot of people, lots of dogs.

00:57:51: Children trying... Dogs barking like every announcement comes.

00:57:56: so our daughter at that time can't sleep in these conditions And we were like sitting there on the chairs, because you don't have something to lie in.

00:58:06: We was sitting on chairs and she doesn't sleep.

00:58:10: it's night.

00:58:10: She begins to cry.

00:58:13: In one hour two hours three hours.

00:58:15: You feed her with breast and trying to calm here But eventually saying maybe explosions are over The air alert is not off but Maybe I should go back home try to sleep.

00:58:31: You don't know what hits you more.

00:58:36: When I started researching for this episode on Ukraine, it was clear that the war was going to be a factor but i was concerned not to let it overshadow Ksenian Dmitry's views and experiences about equal parenting.

00:58:50: After all This is series of couples trying share their responsibilities of parenthood more equally.

00:58:56: Not About War.

00:58:58: In next episode I'll be looking at work-life balance in Japanese society.

00:59:06: But after my conversations with Ksenia and Dmitro, it became clear to me that for the moment at least The War dominates everything including their efforts to share their parental responsibilities equally.

00:59:19: so It felt right to begin this episode with it And it feels Right To End With It too.

00:59:26: That said... and their decision to share parental responsibilities, both be very involved has probably helped their own resilience during this challenging time.

00:59:42: I hope that sometime soon peace will come.

00:59:45: they would enjoy the wonderful benefits of equal parenting without hardships in war.

00:59:53: In my final extract from conversation with two of them Xenia returns on the topic of air raid shelters.

01:00:00: For me it sums up challenges at present And it also captures the empathy and upbeat humour with which they are supporting each other through.

01:00:09: I

01:00:09: think that deep inside, each one of us is just thinking about this but you're all the time trying to kill those bad thoughts... ...and try not to think what's going on here.

01:00:29: But the best solution would be to go into a shelter which we're not doing and I understand that sometimes you are choosing whether You will be one hundred percent safe in the shelter or your kid is gonna be sleeping at night And feeling okay, so when you see how your kids is silently sweetly sleeping in a warm bath.

01:01:02: In the warm bath and you understand that right now, You can take her out of this bed And she's not gonna sleep maybe till morning.

01:01:10: But your are not willing to ruin it Sometimes.

01:01:15: yeah The price is not going To be really high.